Do strut tower bars actually help?

"YSI-what can brown do for you" (ysi-what-can-brown-do-for-you) 11/17/2013 at 22:45 • Filed to: None

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I have wonder this. They should help add some rigidity but at the same time it just seems too simple. I was thinking about buying one, but decided not too because it just seems like a scam.

Harrycarry250 > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:48

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I have no experience with these but I could see them helping an older vehicle more than a new one. Since new construction techniques may result in a stiffer chassis.

PRBot II > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:50

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My car came with one from the factory, so I'd be surprised if it was a scam. But I think the FR-S is probably good enough without one. And with one, the difference could be negligible.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Harrycarry250 11/17/2013 at 22:50

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Right? Those are my thoughts exactly.

Coty > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:50

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My buddy has one on his '88 635CSi, helps immensely.

ddavidn > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:51

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From what I've felt, it helps the older chassis a lot. Not sure about a new car, but I know that some Mazdas come with them by default from the factory. Their front-end feels rock solid too. I'd like to put one in Eva at some point.

YSI-what can brown do for you > PRBot II 11/17/2013 at 22:51

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You think you could feel a difference while tracking and autocrossing? People SAY they feel a difference but that is just the factor of adding a part to their car.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Coty 11/17/2013 at 22:52

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You think it will help a newer car?

Harrycarry250 > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:53

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Put one in your Saab 900 cabrio. Lol

Paul, Man of Mustangs > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:53

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I put one on my '65 Mustang, and there was a noticeable improvement in steering response. Yes, it's a flimsy chassis, but most chassis are still pretty similar. I'd say it's worth it.

YSI-what can brown do for you > ddavidn 11/17/2013 at 22:54

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I was thinking about putting one on my FR-S, but I don't think it will help. Maybe in combination with some other mods it might stiffen things up.

Bullitt Ride > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:54

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Do they help? Yes.

Will you be able to feel the difference? The majority of the time, no.

FWIW I drove my E30 hard with and without the brace and I could feel the increased chassis flex with out it through the corners.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > ddavidn 11/17/2013 at 22:55

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By some point do you mean

doodon2whls > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:55

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It depends on the vehicle platform, but 99% of the time, it's a scam. Here's why: Unless you replace your suspension control arm or link bushings with heim joints, there is more compliance in the suspension than in the vehicle structure. IOW, of the total compliance in a vehicle between the body and contact patch, the vehicle structure is a very small contributor. The suspension can tires can account for more than 95% of the compliance. Spend money on better tires and urethane bushings if you want to improve compliance.

PRBot II > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 22:56

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I don't track or autocross, so I'm not too sure.

My car is also FWD, so that might be an important factor for maintaining structural integrity while powering around a bumpy corner. With your RWD, it might not matter as much.

/not an automotive engineer

YSI-what can brown do for you > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 11/17/2013 at 22:57

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When money arrives, which takes about 958082432908 years. . .

YSI-what can brown do for you > Harrycarry250 11/17/2013 at 22:58

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My Saab? I don't own a Saab. Unless you gifted me one. Did you gift me a Saab?

YSI-what can brown do for you > Paul, Man of Mustangs 11/17/2013 at 22:58

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It isn't expensive, under 200 bucks. So it can't hurt the car.

YSI-what can brown do for you > PRBot II 11/17/2013 at 22:59

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Makes sense, there are more forces with a FWD car. . . atleast up front.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Bullitt Ride 11/17/2013 at 23:00

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The question is. . . should I buy one?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:00

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SOON... is an inside joke between me and ddavidn

But some cars come with them built in by the fire wall, under the plastic cowl. So I'd check under there first otherwise you're just buying eye candy.

Paul, Man of Mustangs > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:01

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I think they mostly help on old, flimsy cars, or modern cars with sticky tires that are pulling high g loads or negotiating quick turns. If you're autocrossing, then one of these is a must.

oldirtybootz > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:01

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My boss has a Challenger SRT8 and has them front and rear on it and he says he feels the difference. Then a guy from school who lives down the road has a Dart 1.4 DDCT and he said it makes a difference. For $74 I think I'll try it.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:01

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are you running coilovers already?
I've heard the Cusco brace are the ducks nuts on 86's as it helps reduce Master Brake Cylinder flex too. I think you should get one, but only if you've already got coilovers and upgraded sway bars. especially because you Autocross right?..

YSI-what can brown do for you > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 11/17/2013 at 23:03

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I totally thought you posted that too me. I had no idea what you were talking about. . . Now that we got past this debacle, I don't think there is one by the firewall, but there are some bars, I guess they help. You can kind of see them in the picture.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:03

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That gift is also your curse...

Harrycarry250 > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:04

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Im kidding because Saab's are very floppy.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Paul, Man of Mustangs 11/17/2013 at 23:04

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I do autocross, and I am planning on upping the grip levels of the car.

YSI-what can brown do for you > oldirtybootz 11/17/2013 at 23:06

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If anything it will make the engine bay look nice.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Harrycarry250 11/17/2013 at 23:07

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Here I was thinking I was gifted a Saab. You leave me a broken man.

Zipppy, Mazdurp builder, Probeski owner and former ricerboy > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:07

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Found this video in Engrish. It lowers the amount of Lateral G's apparently.

ddavidn > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:07

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By "SOON," my best pal Arch Duke here means after I replace Eva's cooling system. Er, yeah, inside joke.

ddavidn > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:08

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I think if you put them in a brand-new car, the main purpose is to prevent any future rigidity problems. Not necessarily improve the handling instantly.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > ddavidn 11/17/2013 at 23:09

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Coty > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:09

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You have an FR-S right? I dunno, might help you carry a little speed through corners but I couldn't say for sure. I've never driven a stock Toyobaru, much less one with strut bracing.

YSI-what can brown do for you > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 11/17/2013 at 23:10

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I do autocross. Don't have coilovers yet. They will come with the new wheels. Don't know about swaybars. The cusco parts are really nice for the car, like their lower control arms(I need those for chamber adjustment).

Desu-San-Desu > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:12

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A lot of it depends on the level of flex in the chassis compared to the level of compliance in the suspension. If the chassis has more flex than the suspension has compliance, such as with stiff aftermarket suspensions or older chassis, then you would feel a difference. Otherwise? The suspension will soak up the majority of travel before the chassis actually experiences enough stress to actually flex.

However, an additional use of strut bars is tuning rotating behaviors of a car. Take my Prelude for instance. It's FWD and as such has more understeer than I desire. The suspension does help, of course, with a double-wishbone from suspension adding camber and grip to the front tires under cornering load, while the rear tires are basic macpherson struts, ensuring that under neutral lateral G's, the rear tires have less grip and thus will balance out the added weight of the front, making the mid-corner and corner-exit behavior of the car quite neutral for the FWD car.

But what if I want more oversteer on corner exit and less understeer on corner entry? Well, I could stiffen the rear suspension and leave the front more on the soft side. But since the 2nd-gen Prelude never had adjustable suspension offered, that's not actually an option. So what to do? Well, if I want to stiffen the rear end and can't adjust the suspension to dial in the extra rotation, I could use a anti-roll bar to stiffen the rear chassis, limiting the chassis flex and therefore limiting the amount of rebound on the inside suspension bits at the rear, which will cause the inside rear tire to raise off the ground under heavy cornering, effectively three-wheeling (or 'cocking a leg' as the Brits like the say) and inducing oversteer by way of brute force via rotation physics.

At this point, unlike adjustable suspension bits, the modification does not add performance, as you're actually reducing the total level of grip the car is capable of. Instead, at this point, you're modifying for the sake of feel, behavior, and driver preference/enjoyment.

If you have adjustable front strut braces and anti-roll bars, you can actually fine-tune the rotational personality of a car quite a lot, but only if you know what you're doing and only at a pretty high threshold, considering the cornering forces necessary to actually utilize said adjustments.

Harrycarry250 > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:14

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HERE HAPPY NOEW

YSI-what can brown do for you > Desu-San-Desu 11/17/2013 at 23:18

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So a stiffer front end enduces understeer. Interesting, cause the FR-S pushes a little when entering a corner too fast but oversteers when it come in perfectly. Would it be best to leave the car as it is?

YSI-what can brown do for you > Harrycarry250 11/17/2013 at 23:19

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Yes. I am very happy.

TheOnelectronic > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:22

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My 335i had one stock, and I think the S4 might also.

There's just sheet metal holding the towers in place. The bar helps reduce undesired deflection.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:22

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Old car, yes. New cars less so. Until you start running stiff suspension with REALLY sticky tires, you won't notice much of a difference. And if you did get one, try to find one that is a triangle design that connects the towers to a point on the firewall too.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 11/17/2013 at 23:23

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Is it like STDs or something?

YSI-what can brown do for you > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 11/17/2013 at 23:25

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It comes stock with bars that connect the towers to the firewall, should I get a strut tower bar that comes with a these all connected or should I just leave the stock ones in place.

YSI-what can brown do for you > TheOnelectronic 11/17/2013 at 23:26

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Or some magic that I don't know about. Have you tried taking the bars off the cars and seeing if you felt a difference.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:33

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Something like this would be ideal

http://passwordjdm.com/PasswordJDM-Ul…

Desu-San-Desu > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:35

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So a stiffer front end enduces understeer.

Only when compared in relation to the stiffness of the rear end. Softer front than rear equals more grip in the front, less in the rear, resulting in oversteering tendencies. Stiffer rear than front equals more grip in the rear than in the front, resulting in understeer tendencies. To understand why this happens, you have to have analyze how a car's suspension behaves during cornering and how the level contact patch per tire is affected by this. Just visualize it one piece at a time and it should make sense.

Since the FR-S is already tuned for more oversteer than understeer, I would leave the front of the chassis alone and instead work on adjusting your line and chassis balance via braking. Practice left-foot braking and trail-braking to induce weight shift and trade grip from the back by sending it to the front on corner entry, thus adding grip to the front and helping reduce understeer.

Also considering ever-so-slightly increasing the negative camber on the front tires so that the outside wheel maintains a larger contact patch under heavy cornering load instead of leaning onto the sidewall. The rear tires, being mounted to a double-wishbone suspension, should not need this adjustment as the nature of the double-wishbone layout means that they gain negative camber when compressed, thus maintaining a proper contact patch and explaining one of the reasons the FR-S is so easy to control when sideways. The fronts, however, are on a simple MacPherson strut assembly (you'll notice this is a direct opposite of my Prelude), therefore limiting their ability to adjust camber in response to compression, but in turn provides better straight-line stability with the side-effect of causing the front tires to lose grip first when subjected to too much lateral force or steering angle. Manually increasing the degree of negative camber on the front wheels could help alleviate this, however, doing so will also reduce straight-line stability (treadlining on the highway, for example) and also encourage uneven tire wear.

Instead of sacrificing tire life and stability on the highway, I would recommend focusing more on your driving technique. Perfecting your driving line and practicing and becoming more proficient at weight-shift and chassis balance via left-foot braking and trail braking has pretty much no downside outside of maybe a week or two of whiplash as you become accustomed to it.

My credentials: I daily-drive a 1991 Audi 80 quattro with the front-mounted slant-5 engine- one of the most notoriously nose-heavy and understeery cars ever made.

YSI-what can brown do for you > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 11/17/2013 at 23:35

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Thanks for the help! If I think about getting one, this will probably be up there.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Desu-San-Desu 11/17/2013 at 23:41

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My plan is to get wider sticker rubber. I will be practicing how to drive but there is only so much I can do with the crappy tires they gave me. I have accidentally went into a oversteer slide on accident because of them(fun but dangerous on roads). I assume track days are the best place to practice because of seat time, so I will learn some good braking technique there!

Desu-San-Desu > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/17/2013 at 23:48

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The stock tires are intentionally shitty so you can understand how the chassis handles at the limits (limits placed lower on purpose by the stock tire choice) and beyond, so that you are better prepared for those limits at higher speeds with better rubber. It's sort of the same concept as learning how to induce and recover from slides and spins on a slick skidpad, but not quite to that extreme.

Basically the stock tires are training wheels for fledgling hoonigans. If you've already accidentally oversteered, then that means you're probably not ready for stickier tires just yet. 'Accidentally' oversteering or understeering means you overestimated your own capabilities versus the capabilities of the car and tires, indicating a lack of understanding and communication between man and machine. Doing this as 30mph usually just results in a light scrape and a lot of embarrassment. Doing this at 90 because your tires don't break loose until then can easily result in a personalized gravestone.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 00:00

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fair enough. Get the wheels and coil-overs sorted first and then see how you go.

If you really want to go crazy you can get the TRD door stabilisers

they have a graph so they must work!

Squid > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 00:01

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If the FRZ uses macpherson struts then it should help. If it uses traditional shocks then it won't help that much. The big question is if the buckets where the shocks/struts are mounted are a stressed member or not. The main thing you would feel is less cowl shake if there is any on the FRZ.

Basically it won't hurt your car, but don't expect a night/day difference like you would see in a civic.

Bottom line is if you got a line on a cheap tower bar that isn't associated with Megan or her friend Riceland then you got nothing to lose. But you would be better off saving that money to put towards a nice set of coilovers or even just a better set of tires.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Squid 11/18/2013 at 00:59

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Well I just want a general idea whether they help or not. I am not planning on getting one until after wheels, tires, and coilovers.

Squid > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 01:09

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It will add a little bit of rigidity, but don't expect it to change the character of the car completely. I think that the subframe and lower chassis bracing will be more beneficial, but I don't know if they produce that bracing for the FRZ yet.

Basically it won't hurt the car any but if there is a diff brace or other chassis bracing available for the car to connect the underneath, it will do better. Also, the 3 point braces that connect to the firewall are the best, as long as the firewall is structurally sound.

Look at what some of the race car builds have, if they have the shock/strut tower bar brace then there is a good bet that it is functional to some degree.

offroadkarter > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 01:20

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I've never owned a vehicle with struts, so I can't say I've ever used one. The 2011+ mustangs come with a factory one, I know they were available on some of the older SN95's also.

I put one on my friends PT cruiser GT and he said the front end felt tighter.

candyfobreakfast > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 02:46

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The further away from the firewall the struts are the bigger the difference they make, the harder you drive the more you will feel the difference. Ex: on a Mustang they are a huge must, on a STI they are worthless.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 11/18/2013 at 06:39

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and don't forget that "Image is an image"

"Image is an image.
The world's first new mechanism (patent pending) *
And reduce the delay of the vehicle when you manipulate the steering of the striker portion of the door into the spacer and fill the gap and finish and a quick response.
For allowing a sliding mechanism to Auto adjust to zero.
Design a presence in easy mounting."

davedave1111 > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 06:42

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As with all mods, a good question to ask is why it's not factory stock/an option already. I don't know, but I'd guess in the case of the FR-S that it's quite possible it offers no benefit over the stock chassis in stiffness terms until you do a lot of mods to the suspension.

I'd also be very wary of altering the balance of grip/handling without giving any real improvement. It may well be that the tower-brace makes the front-end stiffer, but that may not be a good thing for the car's handling.

UserNotFound > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 07:36

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Go to MotoIQ and read their FR-S build threads. Do whatever they do, because they know what they're doing.

Klaus Schmoll > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 07:42

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My Euro-Accord has them as standard, and compared to other beige sedans from that era, the front feels pretts rigid and the handling is really good.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 11/18/2013 at 07:54

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I wonder if i can presence the design for my mr2. Happy mount image

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 11/18/2013 at 07:54

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Bullitt Ride > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 08:17

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If you track your car at all I'd say it's worth it. Other than that I'd say it's not doing anything more than make your engine bay look #becauseracecar.

AutoZealot > Harrycarry250 11/18/2013 at 08:53

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Here's your answer. It could help older cars and some cars known for their lack of structural rigidity (see fox body mustangs). If one is looking to remove suspension complicance, the real answers is bushings.

My full prep autox car doesn't use one since testing didn't reveal any noticable improvements - so it was yanked off for weight reduction.

pfftballer > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 09:32

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If you look closely the Toyobaru engine bay you pictured already has functional factory strut tower supports so in that case, no probably not. Like everything in life, it depends but in most cases with modern cars the benefit will be nill. Save your money for a set of sway bars or better yet, good tires if you want to corner flat.

TheOnelectronic > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 11:03

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They're pretty interwoven with the body, so it'd be prohibitively difficult.

oldirtybootz > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 12:10

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This is the one I'm looking at. http://www.modernperformance.com/product/mpx_fr…

NaturallyAspirated > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/18/2013 at 17:19

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What I've always heard is that bars with bends in them (like the one in your picture) don't do a lot since the bar will actually flex pretty easily.

The brace I put on my Miata (on the underside of the unibody, not on the strut towers) was a solid piece of channel steel, and it make an enormous difference in the rigidity of the chassis.

journeymanbaiter > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/21/2013 at 08:59

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I think they add like 20 horsepower.

journeymanbaiter > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/21/2013 at 09:00

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I think they add like 20 horsepower.

GreenN_Gold > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/21/2013 at 13:51

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Viper believes.

d16y8 > YSI-what can brown do for you 11/21/2013 at 18:56

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The right one will make a difference you can feel. Do NOT get a hinged one like the one in the article photo. Having a hinged strut bar only gives partial benefits, since on a hard corner there is still play as the bar moves. Also, you'll eventually want to pair it with a lower strut bar.

After installing mine, I immediately noticed that the steering response was tighter: the car is more nimble and more eagerly responds to my twitches and jerks of the wheel. Also, there is no more creaking when going up a steep driveway at an angle; this is because the chassis is significantly stiffer.

One downside is the increased susceptibility to bump steer. I still feel that this mod is worth it though.